PBR client opacity issue on textures with alpha channel (Windows)
tracked
Villena Swansen
Blinn-Phong textures with alpha channels appear excessively transparent in the PBR client, with thinner alpha edges. Adjusting the exposure to the lowest setting or changing environment settings doesn't help.
This issue affects many products, and the only solutions are to double the layer or make textures more opaque and have two versions of the same product included with the purchase. However, this causes inconsistency for users who don't use PBR, as they will see the items differently than PBR users.
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Kyle Linden
tracked
Hello everyone,
Thank you for all the thoughtful feedback. We understand that many of you have been waiting eagerly to see how this issue would be resolved.
We believe there is a path forward that preserves linear alpha blending but allows for Gamma correction, even on no-mod objects.
This means existing content can be adjusted to look the way it was originally. It's too early to describe details further and may be a viewer release or two away, but we heard you and we want to make things right.
In addition we have recently posted a blog addressing several other PBR related performance issue that we want you to know we're working on too. https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/15920-having-problems-with-frame-rate-texture-loading-or-performance-here%E2%80%99s-what-you-can-do/
Thank you all and see you in world.
Kylie Remsen
I am the creator of KR Design. I have also noticed how PBR alpha textures are a lot more transparent than they were before resulting in possibly multiple thousands of content being destroyed. I primarily make nylon related clothing and a few times now I have gotten into trouble at certain venues because they now think i'm wearing sheer nylons but on the old viewer i'm wearing more opaque. Please fix this and let's not destroy so much hard work from the creator community. It's critical.
May i also add that i'm so annoyed right now at how they have somehow decided that black diffuse textures cause alpha texture to me more transparent? and how white diffuse textures makes them more opaque? What on earth is the point of even having an alpha channel anymore if this is the case? it's bloody ludicrous and to say they wanna work "around" it to make it appear more like before is also ludicrous. Please just make things backwards compatible instead before you ship it - then perhaps issues like this can be avoided.
So tired of the same old consensus of them just wanting everyone to adjust so much hard work to fit around their bad changes all the time.
tapkoinu Resident
Hi Everyone, while I'm not a creator, I am a user/consumer of many products created and sold. Ever since SL started using PBR I have to say that I've been very disappointed with my user experience. The issue that initially brought me here is that darker appliers now appear lighter than they used to (I came here via a link in this thread here: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/514534-tights-appliers-are-suddenly-lighter-please-help/) This was an issue I noticed right away and its been an ongoing frustration for me. I bought the darker shades specifically, so they should appear darker as they were intended/purchased.
Looking through this thread, I spotted Nana's comment (Creator of BONBON) about PBR affecting how hair displays and I've noticed this with several hair products I have purchased and use. Now that PBR is affecting them in a negative way, I no longer use those products so its now wasted my money. Why would I use a product that looks broken? It's deeply frustrating for me as a consumer and SL user to have a change made to the platform that ruins so many products that I have purchased and used (plus its been causing my machine to work a lot harder and I've felt a decrease in performance).
Overall, I'm not happy with this change to PBR and wish we could just turn it off completely and make it go away. PBR has decreased my enjoyment of SL, not enhanced it.
Henri Beauchamp
Kyle Linden
"We believe there is a path forward that preserves linear alpha blending but allows for Gamma correction, even on no-mod objects. "
While I am glad LL seems committed to "get things right", by inferring what the solution could be from your wording, I am worried that this "solution" would involve editing existing non-PBR contents to get it to render properly again: if this is indeed what you guys got in mind, this would not be acceptable, I'm afraid, because it would mean that every alpha-blend object in SL would have to be edited by their owner to "repair" the mess, and this is simply impossible to achieve (what about the hundreds of thousands of legacy builds in SL main land, for example ?).
The solution must involve a change in the PBR renderer, so that alpha-blended faces are rendered using their own shader (yes, it means a new render pool or two for alpha blended faces, and will likely involve a small performance hit, CPU-side, but won't impact the GPU-side, since a given face will only appear in one pool and be rendered once in it). The decision about what pool to use for rendering is quite simple to do, in the draw info building code: just flag alpha-blended faces without a PBR material as needing the new shader to render (i.e. no need for a specific flag set on an object to make the decision, and no need for editing any existing contents in SL).
Henri Beauchamp
During the last Open Development User Group meeting, I raised this issue again.
From what I understood, the need for that "legacy texture gamma flag" was to ensure that new contents, designed for rendering nicely with the PBR viewers
but
not using a PBR material would render "as expected" by their creator.But this is taking things
the wrong way around
: if you guys do not want all non-PBR-bearing faces to be rendered in the legacy way, then you need to make that flag only affect newly created contents, and only when it is actually the creator's intention (i.e. they do provide legacy diffuse or ALM materials textures with a linear color mapping).So, instead of adding a flag (that would also need to allow "violating" no-mod permissions) to fix legacy contents, just add a flag (that could even correspond to a check box in the Build floater that would be ticked by default) for
new contents
. This way there is no need
to edit any legacy contents to see it rendering as it was intended to, and new contents can still be flagged the way the creator chooses, depending on the textures they provide.Kyle Linden
tracked
Hello everyone,
Thank you for all the thoughtful feedback. We understand that many of you have been waiting eagerly to see how this issue would be resolved.
We believe there is a path forward that preserves linear alpha blending but allows for Gamma correction, even on no-mod objects.
This means existing content can be adjusted to look the way it was originally. It's too early to describe details further and may be a viewer release or two away, but we heard you and we want to make things right.
In addition we have recently posted a blog addressing several other PBR related performance issue that we want you to know we're working on too. https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/15920-having-problems-with-frame-rate-texture-loading-or-performance-here%E2%80%99s-what-you-can-do/
Thank you all and see you in world.
Reid Parkin
Kyle Linden Thank you for taking the issue seriously. It sounds like the fix is a while off. I have customers who use pre and post PBR viewers. The problem is getting everyone to see a decent product. I've been trying to adjust my waterfalls by increasing the transparency, while maintaining the contrast with the whiter foam areas, which means redoing the textures in photoshop, and then sell 2 versions. Then with the coming fix I may have to adjust it all again. Will this fix work for both pre and post PBR viewers? Will everyone see the same thing?
Celestine Ghiardie
Not sure if it has been brought up here yet or if its even relevant for this discussion, but on BP textures with alpha blend the result seems to be a sorta mix between the old alpha blend and alpha mask. But turning on the full bright seems to make it revert to the old alpha blend: https://gyazo.com/5062f61db3f11853749ab8ae4b18937e
Toby Velvetleaf
In support of this submission, I am including my supporting observations with respect to tattoo textures applied onto onion mesh body layers. I have tested this on Belleza Jake and Maitreya Lara Classic and X. The PBR viewer is definitely lowering the opacity of existing alpha enabled textures. Anything less than 100% opacity seems to have 25% lower opacity, so 75% opaque looks 50% opaque, etc.
Extrude Ragu
As much as I am enjoying all the new see through shirts, I think that something should be done to correct the blinn phong colorspace in the viewer, rather than retrospectively messing up everyones stuff. I understand PBR Alpha uses a different color space, but that's no reason to break blinn phong
Reid Parkin
My waterfalls have been impacted too. Images attached. As others have stated, these items take a very long time and hard work to create to get it to look as close to perfect as we can get it. Then we list it on MP for sale, and the reviews are positive so the hard work has paid off. Now this! What do we do now? Do we go back and try to fix all affected items and spend more time and effort. What about the real possibility of negative reviews because images are not matching item received. What about all the customers who bought these items? These issues cannot be ignored. How can we confidently keep creating and selling if we can't trust the system, and our items can break again tomorrow.
Cain Maven
I think we all understand and accept that linear is the future. But legacy content is likely to be around for, oh, another 21 years, so it would seem worthwhile to find a solution that doesn’t break current products?
Ghoul Waifu
I also found yet another issue with this. Meshes with transperancy that are hit with shadow lose the shine/glossiness where the Shadow hits. I can not imagine that is also a "feature".
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