Water differences since pre-PBR
Atlas Linden
This issue is to point out the differences in water when comparing a current viewer to pre-PBR (in this case FS 6.6.17).
If you're reading this and would also like to point out obvious water changes you've noticed since the implementation of PBR then please do! Images are definitely recommended. Be sure to provide a SLURL for the location the image was taken at and what graphics settings are set to :)
Please note that this is not focusing on water reflections
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Reid Parkin
Ideally, Linden water should look good without any tweaking of settings, EEPs or Experiences added. Default settings is what a new user would see, and that should be an impressive and enticing experience. Also, It should not be so complicated for that new user (who decides to stay), or anyone else to have a good experience, or the need to buy that result.
After using Andred Darwin 's EEPs, which is a good improvement (thank you) it still doesn't beat pre PBR Linden water and its beauty and simplicity.
Persephone Emerald
I haven't noticed the bad water texture because since the introduction of PBR, I derender Linden water. I usually want a simple transparent water texture. If so many people are unhappy about the water, however, it obviously needs to be fixed.
Signal Linden
Merged in a post:
Please restore dynamic reflection on water.
Aishagain Resident
None
Andred Darwin
To continue my first comment, I do believe as of today (official build ForeverFPS 01-15-2025), the EEP engine is fantastic, aside from the known bugs and performance concerns specially on potato computers, its the best PBR viewer released so far, I wish this one was the first PBR viewer, a huge (really huge) step forward from the first ExtraFPS RC viewer released back in Oct/Nov 2024, the dev team really deserves credit on how fast issues were addressed (and are being addressed currently), as an user, I'm really appreciative of that.
As examples, the snapshots below are showing "classic eep settings" that look almost the same on both viewers, if they look good or not, its a matter of tweaking and personal opinion, I'm not claiming they look good, I am saying its a similar rendering result on both viewers.
One note:
- HDR/Emissive, if disabled for classic settings, makes it even closer. In my opinion, the viewer would benefit of that option being disabled automatically for "classic settings", meaning Reflection Probe Ambiance = 0 (maybe even along with the Reflection Probes pass for "true" classic scenes), the main difference is on clouds/water with HDR/Emissive enabled, not counting the FPS benefit. (Of course, with an option to leave it on at all times... so both sides of isle are "happy").
- Shadows being projected on water is something "missing" in the new rendering engine.
Also my opinion, its ok I guess, to say, "get rid of the old settings", but not without offering a good reference, starting with defaults in regions and on viewer itself.
The new viewer is fantastic, classic settings can look great, and PBR settings water are not too bad.
The snapshots attached are showing "classic" settings, they look almost the same on both viewers. Small tweaks can easily be done, so each user can achieve what they believe it looks "good".
This link has snapshots of PBR settings with water also tweaked. Water is not that bad at all!
PBR is amazing, defaults and examples on the viewer itself can go a long way.
Atlas Linden
Thanks Andred! We do have a bug report for the shadows no longer appearing on water which will hopefully be fixed in a future release: https://github.com/secondlife/viewer/issues/2718
Andred Darwin
In my opinion, this is just a rabbit hole, my two cents, you guys should not pursue this goal that way.
Pre-PBR viewers are just a complete different rendering engine, look at the options for water at the old viewer "Graphics->Preferences" window":
Water Reflections
None; Opaque
None; Transparent
Minimal
Terrain and Trees
All Static Objects
All Avatar and Objects
Everything
Just based on these, you can get at least 6 different opinions on how the same EEP water in PRE-PBR viewer looks in the user perception.
The old rendering engine was a lot more forgiven with EEP, "crazy eep settings / water" colors combined and tweaked for whatever purpose (You just can't fix that).
The new rendering engine is a "richer" environment, but at the same time less forgiven, specially with water, where normal maps make a huge difference. (Default settings dont look good on the new viewer!)
A suggestion, would be to update the current defaults, I'm going to type this capitalized in purpose, "IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE CLASSIC DEFAULT SETTINGS THAT LOOKS GREAT ON BOTH OLD AND NEW VIEWERS".
The problem is that the new engine was "released" without any "easy" guidance on how to tweak or any defaults on the viewer itself to help people to get started.
The defaults are a great and easy resource to provide a starting point., no long tutorials or "blah blah blah" wiki pages. Its select and play.
Please see snapshots, showing how the default settings (specially water) look on 6.6.17 and 7.1.12 (ForeverFPS, as of 01-15-2025), it all starts there, no wonder people notice the difference.
The new Midday, is just awesome for creators... its great to be able to replicate Substance/Blender settings and just upload to SL.
The new Midday, in my opinion should be renamed to PBR Reference, and the old settings for Midday, Sunset, Sunrise, Midnight along with its water settings/day cycle, updated to settings that can look reasonable and very similar on both viewers, then let SL be SL... (the new viewer can render PBR with classic settings too... not as nice, but easily "reasonable").
The snapshots are default "Midday, Sunrise, Sunset, Midnight"
Kristy Aurelia
Andred Darwin Looking at the pictures, you have Water Reflections - Everything in the 6.x version, but Screen Space Reflections are off in 7.x. The reflections should be on or off in both for a more fair comparison.
Andred Darwin
Kristy Aurelia Hi Kristy, there is no difference for me with it on or off with "classic" EEP settings, except, due to the known bug, Screen Space Reflections causes artifacts on the water when enabled. I leave it off all the time. Do you see any difference with "classic" settings with it on? Can you post any picture showing the difference? Im using the latest build for ForeverFPS (7.1.12.12793544240 (64bit))
Im looking at the settings in this area. http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Brown/26/6/27, there is a board with 18 classic settings, and another with the same 18 converted to PBR. The default set for that parcel is a PBR eep setting.
The classic settings look very close on both old and new viewers.
Reid Parkin
Monica Weir
Reid ParkinThank you for posting those photos Reid, that is exactly what I see and to me this is ugly water and pre-pbr water is the better option. I've done all but buy a completely new rig. I even sat one day playing with EEp, settings, uploading textures, etc and 2 hours later could get nothing that looked decent. I have no idea how others get the relatively nice photos of water vs what I get like what you are showing here.
Reid Parkin
Monica Weir Thank you to you too for confirming my experience, Monica. It's really spoilt the appearance of my land. I've also tried everything without satisfaction. I'm thinking of options like getting rid of the water, but I sell boats and off sim structures. So, I might have to terraform as much of it out and use screens to block it out, and just leave a smaller area for demo boats and off sims. It was strange to me that not many people were talking about it, so I was happy to see this bug report started by Atlas Linden
Monica Weir
Reid Parkin Happy to hear you are doing boats, I think I own every plant you ever made :). And also we had the same idea about the water.
last summer I changed the water height on the sim and replaced it with a prim from one of Alex Bader's river water builds and laid it on top of a koi pond from Pond Inspector. Til they get this fixed, it'll do.
Monica Weir
With all respect, but without rig specs - graphics,EEP used, settings.. All I know is water looked a thousand times better pre-PBR with just a windlight set on default.
Nescolet Resident
pre-PBR water looking better in previoius post �
Aishagain Resident
@ Vincent Nacon: It's quite simple. Static and dynamic reflections of terrain, objects and avatars are no longer supported by PBR rendering.
The only way to achieve any reflection, other than of sky and clouds in Linden water is by the use of reflection probes, which cannot be used dynamically.
The result is extremely poor water appearance, particularly when sailing. This has completely ruined the visual experience.
Andred Darwin
Aishagain Resident Hi Aishagain, the reflections seem to be supported and work with the same result, but not without tweaking the EEP settings for water along with the normal map.... the only thing I noticed missing, are avatar reflection (dynamic) and shadows being projected on water surface ( Atlas Linden mentioned there is a ticket open for it ). This snapshot was taken with the latest build of ForeverFPS which may be published soon as an RC (hopefully today 01-17-2025).... The snapshot shows the "stone" reflections... its easier to notice if you visit the location http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Taber/108/222/23, the results are similar with the "classic" eep version of that same EEP (Classic meaning HDR Reflection Probe Ambiance = 0.... PBR meaning HDR Reflection Probe Ambiance > 0 and Ambient color set to Black or close to Black... ), that land has the PBR version as "default" for the parcel, so you may need to have "Use Shared Environment" enabled.
I think you are right on point to say they are not same with default classic settings or old settings depending on the normal map, fresnel / refraction scale values. My 2 cents would go onto say that the EEP PBR engine is awesome.. and the tweaks are not that "impossible" to make.
Vincent Nacon
It was never removed? Maybe you're seeing a bug?
Allegory Malaprop
Vincent Nacon Reflections are significantly altered with PBR, to the degree that they are no longer correct on water, even with a reflection probe (a probe helps, but still cannot entirely reflect from the correct position, which can be subtle or extremely obvious depending on what is in the water).
Aishagain Resident
Vincent Nacon nonsense
Vincent Nacon
Aishagain Resident Could you please explain a bit more?
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