Community/Project Sim Region Pricing
under review
Aliton Firehawk
I believe that, with the economy in the way it is, it would be beneficial towards the health and longevity of Second Life for Linden Labs to offer discounted incentives for private regions who run not-for-profit communities on this game, much like educational Institutions and charitable institutions are able to do. These should be regions that do not monetize or commercialize their estates, and also not be a private region (family/personal residence). They must have a focus on a community/project. This would be a great incentive to bring back exploration sims, more roleplay regions, combat/game sims, as the price of these regions is large and entirely unforgiving towards people's passions. Especially with how the economy is right now. To apply to this, the project would need to be pitched to a team to ensure the project does not encroach upon IP and would meet the standards needed for the discount to be approved. I have seen many sims vanish due to a lack of sufficient funding, and this would help in the long run of things. There would likely need to be rules on store vendors, rentals, and donations, but that is manageable.
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Bunni OwO
Or you know, we could just see a decrease in the price of land for everyone across the board regardless of what their sim is used for.
A full region cost about 260 USD (or more depending on where you live!) per month. That's more than most peoples phone bill, that's more than most peoples weekly grocery budget. You make a hard point that I hope LL will listen to in that, in this economy this sort of pricing cannot sustain this game.
Sims are dying out. Communities are drying up and as they continue to do so, many of us go to find our community in other spaces. I love SL and the freedom of creativity it's always allowed me to have, but eventually someone will come along and do even that better than they have. The price of these sims will ensure that SL will be long in the internet graveyard, before that even happens.
When there are no more places to hang out that arnt' shopping events, things pushing you to spend lindens to enjoy the experience, and just the mainland and safehubs are all that is left - how many players will remain dedicated to this game? And how many of those players will continue to spend money on their premium, money on linden uploads, money on land, etc?
I'd personally like to see a return to pricing that reflects the fact that we are now on cloud servers and there's no more
limited space
to encourage the inflation of prices to slowdown the creation of new sims. Maybe even a return to pricing that the land barons received when they purchased their 16+ sims. However, if we don't see at least something reasonable in pricing it will inevitably be the slow death of this game.
Ghoul Waifu
Bunni OwO I am 100% with you on this one. The sim prices are just way too high. It is a slippery slope from here.
Prices are too high ----> regions go out of business ----> less entertainment ----> people have nothing to do ----> people do not buy things because they have no reason to ----> people leave because of boredom
offering much lower prices makes it more affordable to get land and offer entertainment again ----> roleplay, hangouts, other projects
new users are more inclined on getting land when the prices are lower - creators are also struggling right now and can hardly uphold their lands, that they had for years.
I think lowering th eprices severely would really help SL to sustain during this financial crisis era.
Eric Stuart
While I agree prices should absolutely not be at the rate they are any more, I hope this conversation doesn't take away from the original one. Tier is not the only cost for sims and lands that operate through a non- or low-profit scheme. For these event and experience lands, even at half the price, they're still spending upwards of $1200-1800 a year on top of any costs to build, upgrade, etc, just to keep the land maintained. Stores may have an easier time making that money by the nature of what they are, but they'd be one of the only types of land that could see a return at all, much less enough to offset continued costs.
So yes, the conversation of land prices in general should be one to consider, but also offering ways for people to have non-commercial-specialized land subsidized would go a long way to keeping these places alive. They can still have a store or make some money to offset the other costs associated, as long as that's not all it is. I agree though that if we don't curb this fast, we risk it just becoming a "shopping mall", and people will lose interest naturally from the loss of other things to do.
Prokofy Neva
My problem with this proposal is that those with already-existing close ties to Linden Lab employees will be in the best position to get their project declared "non-profit" and existing creators with designing and scripting skills will be able to generate the kind of content appealing to the Lab to get this "non-profit" designation. I think therefore a requirement for this status is that the avatar or group requesting the status AND THEIR MAINS AND ALTS CANNOT have an existing business in SL or commercial operation of any type in SL. I think that is only fair. Otherwise it becomes a loss-leader to drive traffic ultimately to their business or reputation-enhancing project that helps their business. Another way to address this is to only award the non-profit status to those organizations that already have real-life non-profit status, such as 501-c-3 designation from the US Treasury Department in the US or the equivalent abroad.
There are many, many people who make beautiful sims at their own cost, sometimes by adding rentals and content sales to offset the costs. That means that this new status, awarded to just a few, will compete with those people who pay out their hard-earned money for sims, often at a loss, or will disqualify them potentially if they already run a content-sales or rentals on their sim precisely to offset the cost of the sims! We all face the high region-costs. I personally don't have any special land baron discount in SL, I only have the traditional 10% group land discount that generates more tier on Mainland. If anything like this program is put into practice, instead of awarding stand-alone islands or homesteads to this privileged class of people, they should be handed empty or half-empty MAINLAND sims to help beautify the Mainland and get more use out of it.
Eric Stuart
How would offering an easier time for people creating non-profit or low-profit experiences turn anyone into a privileged class? The reason people make those beautiful sims at their own cost is because that's their only option, either pay for resources, sim costs, and any other expenses to get the sim up for little to no return, or just don't do it at all. Also, why wouldn't those very people you mention that somehow would lose out...instead be offered the ability? This isn't just for new sims and builds, it's also for preserving old ones that keep dying out for almost the exact same reason every time: it's not worth the price people pay.
I also wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that if you have any sort of commercial presence, that you should be disallowed. A significant number of people I know that provide free entertainment and experiences at least try to offset those costs by having some sort of a store. Rarely does that ever end up being enough to cover anything substantial. I agree that massive stores shouldn't be offered free land for massive stores, but completely shutting out people creating experiences for trying to offset costs besides tier/rent creates other issues. I've put at least $500+ into resource gathering for a sim I'm helping build up that will never see a "profit" but we still have a store and some income that helps offset some of the long-term costs.
The issue that a lot of people have is the more that these non-profit (different from non-income) and low-profit places keep disappearing for the exact same reason, that being cost. It becomes more unbalanced where if you're not a store actively making profit, chances of survival are slim. Providing a way to keep experiences alive benefits literally everyone from the user to Linden Labs. More people have more to do, which keeps people more involved and interested, which can even bring in new people, which generally leads to more spending, which benefits stores and in turn LL by the fees for money in and out. There's no negative that comes from offering experience creators, regardless of if they make money on the side, a way to survive easier because they're providing much more than their money to give the entire grid something that serves as an overwhelming positive across the board.
Aliton Firehawk
Prokofy Neva
I do disagree with a lot of what you said, but I do understand why you think this way.
To clarify; the proposal is for privately-owned regions that are exclusively built for a community/project in mind. Not for a region that houses a store or a brand, even to mitigate costs. Owning a store or any business in SL should never bar you from being able to apply for this, however. They would just need to keep the separation there. Alternatively; rentals for residents on sim? Sure. However, not to the degree of every 'residential sim' being permitted this allowance.
That is why it would require a team for review. Not only for IP claims, but for questioning the direction/drive of the owner/group who wishes to get these allowances. It should only be allowed for regions that are privately owned by the person/group making the request/proposal, has a direction in mind for the sim/their community, and has a game-plan for how it'll positively affect the overall community of Second Life.
I also do not think the regions themselves should need to have non-profit status to apply, as that would effectively gatekeep it from the variety of people who would want to make a community on this platform, and would benefit from this proposal.
Mainland is a different subject. Some communities can not be on mainland, for immersive purposes, especially those of exploration, combat, and roleplay communities. I absolutely support mainland regions, though, and wish they would have a bit more upkeep and beautification, and LLPW is working on that as far as I was aware. That I do agree with you on, but that has no place in my request/statement.
sprightlysprite Resident
Prokofy Neva If someone's primary purpose in SL is to make interesting places, and they only ran limited commercial activity to offset the cost, this would give them an additional option: stop the commercial activity, and take the discount for a non-commercial region, instead. Of course, if they prefer to still do rentals or stores or such, they can do so and offset their costs the old way.
How to be sure something is non-commercial is a very reasonable question, though. If the region exists primarily to advertise a business elsewhere, that's still commercial despite no actual money changing hands on the sim. And we certainly wouldn't want to prop up a new tier of land barons who take payment off-grid where Linden Labs cannot see, and then give you land apparently-non-commercially on a discounted region.
Something similar could be considered for mainland, sure. Mainland is an entirely different thing, though. It's just not viable for immersive role play, because someone can always buy up a few square meters nearby and build something gallingly out of place. Limiting something like this to only mainland would be unfortunate.
Gimme Morehead
I agree completely. I remember certain regions that had very creative builds and activities to do such as roleplay, exploration or minigames were always central hubs where people could socialize quite easily around something they liked.
Unlike the regions that focus on private rentals, with breedables and shopping (excluding event regions), these mentioned bring people together which is what SL is about at the end of the day.
Beatrice Voxel
SL Regions are for the most part all snapped up by one or two real estate conglomerates, who have the capital to "own" the regions without there being tenants on them to offset the cost. For your average resident, the real-world costs of running a region are way beyond what we would expect.
Meanwhile, we Residents are given the (very small) carrot of getting a small postage stamp of land allotment if we pay Premium rates. The newer plots at least allow enough prims to outfit a house - the older ones barely allowed enough to rez out a room's worth of furnishings (decor is right out). More prims = more weekly tier expense, either to Linden directly, or to the aforementioned land barons.
So yes, LAND COST is a big problem for residents and content creators alike. Creators already get saddled with the surcharge to cash Lindens to real-world funds, but also have to pay for the parcels they use to display and sell things. I suspect a lot of people see the cost of SL as prohibitive over time, and that's a big reason why they end up leaving - it's untenable. And with less residents, there's less buyers for content creators, affecting their bottom line. They pack up and leave, that hits the SL market, further degrading the resident experience. It's a death spiral.
This suggestion is one possible way to forestall that, by giving people interesting places to go while NOT requiring the builders to spend more money running it than they can afford. More will be needed, but this is a start.
sprightlysprite Resident
Beatrice Voxel This is about private regions. Doesn't make sense to say they are "snapped up". There are an unlimited number of them. The only barrier is cost.
Beatrice Voxel
sprightlysprite Resident And the only entities that can foot that cost are the Chungs. So they have a virtual monopoly unless some unicorn comes along to finance a sim (even homesteads are exorbitant.)
Eric Stuart
Second Life lives off experiences, but those experiences tend to not bring in a lot of money all the time. Too many great locations that are low- or no-profit regions die because the costs pile up fast. Hundreds to thousands of dollars a year on top of the costs to build everything for something that they may never see even the first month's tier back is a hard sell, and SL may be worse off for it because people close the venues that do exist, or refuse to open new ones just because of the cost of entry and continued existence.
The lost cost of a sim tier would be paid back in major ways by getting and keeping people invested and interested in spending their time in SL, and having a way for providers and creators to do that without needing to be profit-focused just to break even, would ensure we don't gatekeep some great locations out and force others to close, hurting SL overall. Everyone wins if those places don't have to worry so much to stay alive.
Gorgeous Aurelia
Going from a homestead region with just 5,000 LI to a full region with 20,000 LI is a huge jump. Can Second Life offer something in between? A 10K region, with a discount for non-commercial use, would be great. You could even disable commercial activity, like you've done with open space regions. Please consider it. I think about getting rid of my region all the time, even though I can afford it; it’s still expensive for something that’s basically just a pretty public space.
Micaela Amore
Since land like this will not be allowed to have clubs or life on, or have breedables/farms on them, it would be perfectly fine to make these sims only come online on demand, like they do in Open simulators. This should greatly reduce the costs. Some may only come online for a few hours a week. I feel this would be profitable on average for LL for only 25 dollars a month since it would not eat in to land people have to live on. I know LL looked in to this in the past, and decided to have all sims always online, but I feel these kind of non profit sims are perfect for this.
Crexon Resident
Micaela Amore something to keep in mind is scripts rely on them always running while rezzed on the sim. Spinning them up in a state has caused problems so while im all for on-time style instances it would have to come with the asterisk that certain scripts will not work as intended.
Aliton Firehawk
Micaela Amore
I don't think that needs to be a prerequisite. That'll ruin the aspect of community building if it's closed and not open for discovery for people of other time zones, as the shrinking SL is really truly international.
I think the fact this is meant to bring in traffic to the game, and be a place for LL to show off as "Look what you can do while on this platform" is enough.
Micaela Amore
Aliton Firehawk. it will not be closed to timezones, it is just that when you want to go to a sim like that and it is not online yet, you will get a message that the sim is starting up, and then you have to wait a few minutes before you can go there. It is a way to have projects that are interesting but don't draw a ton of people at a low cost.
Micaela Amore
Crexon Resident Okay , I did not think of that. It is hard to oversee for me how big of a problem that is, so I'm not going to comment on it, but seems like a fair point.
Kyle Linden
under review
Fullperm Alpha
Good request. Upvoted.
Skye Winchester
I own one of the adult regions that can be accessed through the adult portal of social island. I provide free resources and assistance to new residents and pay full price with no actual earnings. The vendor spaces I rent out currently pay for DJs and entertainers with enough left over to help new residents get 1L ‘freebies’.
I do all of this for new residents and pay the full tier price plus additional prims/LI (30k).
I was previously in talks of becoming part of the gateway program but communication disappeared.
There should absolutely be a discount for regions who provide community or services to the grid. I can think of so many who deserve it, not just my own.
Saullt Resident
Skye Winchester THIS! I ran a popular medieval fantasy roleplay sim which brought in absolutely no money for me, was entirely at my own cost. The land, plus the website and other services to support it was all at my personal expense. It drew huge traffic, people had a lot of fun with it, but ultimately those types of 'attractions' are just so, so expensive it's hard to keep up with the economy as it is.
LeillaLux Resident
Saullt Resident Yes! and places like Paloma Plaza for example. (and other non-political places that would be best for most all of SL).
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