Always wait a few seconds before ejecting an avatar from a parcel
tracked
Philip Linden
to allow flying or driving over or across edge of parcels without interruption, add a short delay to llEjectAgent() so that the shortest delay is a few seconds. What problems might this cause?
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Purr Waifu
stuff like this, including being unable to actually have ban lines in my premium home is why I neither want to use my premium home nor own a place in mainland.
Enjoy when mainland gets even more empty from dumb stuff like this.
Here's a better idea. How about the community wanting to fly just gets together to buy a bunch of regions? now you got your own space to control and you could even rent out parcels cheaper to those not caring about privacy and have something to fly over.
Cinnamon Mistwood
Hi Philip. I can't support this. Allowing people into your land for even a few seconds defeats the purpose of "owning" mainland for privacy. It takes away the rights of the person paying for the server space. We were all told when Zindra was created that as long as we were on our M rated parcel with no one outside of it being able to see avatars inside the parcel, that we would be fine. Allowing people inside the parcel boundaries even for a few seconds means they can see and chat with avatars on the parcel. Any child avatar could cross over and see something they can then AR. Also, there ARE griefers and stalkers in SL. They fixate on certain people or causes. Allowing a griefer and their army of alts to continually have access to a parcel (even for a few seconds) to harass, will certainly have a negative effect on the parcel owner, but you took away their privacy by forcing them to allow anyone in for a few seconds and opening them up to unwanted contact. I can sympathize with a few vehicle drivers not being able to go wherever they want, but i would not grant them access at the expense of the privacy and safety of a parcel owner who should have full control over their land.
Rizzy Khaos
Cinnamon Mistwood homestead sims are the solution to this if absolute privacy is your priority.
Plus you'll be supporting the platform so it doesnt go under, and your means of escapism is no longer accessible.
Zalificent Corvinus
Rizzy Khaos
Again with the Privacy Hating Vehicle Vagrant Griefer Trash strawman argument that nobody should be allowed to enjoy some privacy from said griefer trash unless they pay $30 a week for a homestead region.
In addition, Mainland parcel owners are ALREADY supporting the platform via premium subscriptions and Tier payments, in case you hadn't noticed.
Elitist snobbery and utter nonsense from the Vehicle Vagrant Griefer Trash movement, as USUAL
Rizzy Khaos
Zalificent Corvinus you need premium to own a homestead too. :)
Like actually own it, not renting it.
Zalificent Corvinus
Rizzy Khaos
Unsurprisingly, you are, as always, wrong.
This is why Philip Linden shouldn't listen to people like you, you know almost nothing about SecondLife. Certainly nothing of any value.
To own a Homestead rather than rent, you need to either
- Have Premium Plus or
- Own at least ONE Full Estate region before adding a Homestead.
A regular Premium subscription doesn't cut it.
diamond Marchant
I am so happy to see Zali posting here as I thought she might have departed, always good to hear her take on things. My observations are... 1) adding a 10 or 15 sec delay (on Mainland) is fine by me 2) a Mainland-owning resident has no "rights" other than those granted by those investors (and their delegates) who own Second Life 3) solve the bot problem (if it is truly a problem) some other way 4) while you are at it, you can further help the Extreme Vehicle Fanatics like me by disallowing "booby trap" banlines on protected waters (banlines on borders with no visible cues to warn unsuspecting innocent sailors who might be smuggling moonshine)
Laetizia Coronet
People need to be able to get rid of intruders immediately. But set a delay in all automated ejection systems ("orbs") because they are the problem, not people actually clicking a button.
Certified Lunasea
Your proposal lacks the definition of "a few seconds" which is critical from a programming and rule-setting standpoint. Failing to provide quantifiable data as to what this means is an utter failure upon your part Philip, and you should know better than this given your history with this platform.
As someone that has scripted security orbs and still sells them on MP I leave the timing of the delay to the user, but have a default delay of 10 seconds in order to comply with mainland rules. But even 10 seconds can be too too long as most of the bots that are running about on Second Life remain in a parcel for less than 1 second before they go to the next location to do whatever it is they are doing.
Many people use scripted systems with calls like this to prevent the intrusion of bots of all sorts given the fairly useless response from Linden Lab with regards to the bot problem in Second Life. And most bot operators simply don't declare their bots because they can get around the scripted agent ban function this way. To make matters worse they can easily spin up as many bots as they wish (like the over 100 MadisonCybernetics bots on the grid now). And if you think that an undeclared bot is unable to scan, and potentially copy, an entire parcel or region in a matter of less than a second or two then you are sadly mistaken.
The person paying for a parcel or region should have the ability to protect it from intrusion if they so choose. If you aren't paying for the parcel and your last name isn't Linden then you haven't really got any actual right to be there in the first place, so you shouldn't be too surprised if you get tossed.
That all said, if Linden Lab wants to implement this kind of thing then you might want to limit it to specifically mainland regions, or risk upsetting a large number of residents, though you really should look into doing something about the bot problem in SL first. Maybe add some extra space to those ban lists for both parcel and region levels too while you are at it.
Eowyn Southmoor
Question, is llEjectAgent() used when you right mouse-click a person on your land and select "Eject" from the menu? If it is, then it means no-one in SL, regardless of being on Mainland or private estate, can now instantly eject intruders. That is going to a disaster, especially on private estates. As I asked previously, please clarify the exact amount of time "a few seconds" is as in reality, that time is critical in determine how effective and reasonable this idea is, to all parties.
Zalificent Corvinus
Eowyn Southmoor
This idea is not MEANT to be "reasonable" to all parties.
This is LL Nepotism at it's worst.
Philip Linden has a NEW FRIEND, one of the Home Invader Supremacists.
So we get a new suggestion, to help his new friend, with an up-vote button, but no down-vote button.
Starbuckk Serapis
Zalificent Corvinus Most likely no down button because they already decided to implement it but wanted some reasonable feedback to prevent unintended consequences. As i posted in another thread, LL is looking for a reasonable solution to a problem a few triggered members are incapable of recognizing.
Timothy McGregor
Eowyn Southmoor It's safe to assume that he really means "llEjectFromLand()" and possibly the other related LSL functions. This would refer to those LSL functions as used in scripted objects, and most likely NOT the function available directly in the viewer.
Eowyn Southmoor
Zalificent Corvinus Since I also think that no having a downvote button on this feedback site is silly, I've just submitted a proposal for one: https://feedback.secondlife.com/feature-requests/p/downvote-option-needed-on-this-feedback-site
Zalificent Corvinus
Starbuckk Serapis
You people need to make up your minds.
Either
A) The Mainland is impossible to navigate due to VAST numbers of heavily defended residential parcels, so you people are vastly outnumbered, an insignificant noisy minority whose over-entitled demands for the "Right To Trespass" should be ignored...
or
B) It's just "a few triggered members" and you over-entitled people were LYING about all the orbs, and there is no problem deserving of a total waste of time, effort and money by LL granting you the "Right To Trespass", and you should be ignored.
Regardless of which option you people choose, there is still NO valid justification for removing aa mainlander's right to deny access to their parcel for people they dislike.
Spidey Linden
tracked
Issue tracked. We have no estimate when it may be implemented. Please see future updates here.
Zalificent Corvinus
One Mole claimed that allowing random people to trespass at will in ones Belli Home "made for a friendlier community".
There's no sign that is true, quite the reverse, Bellicosians have a well deserved reputation for assuming they have some RIGHT to trespass while looking for things they can file fraudulent Abuse Reports for.
As a Mainland Residential Parcel owner, I have on multiple occasions been told by Belli Vehicle Vagrants that my having a skybox, several km above ground level was abuse reportable, that having an orb was abuse reportable, even told once that having a ground level build that made my parcel "unusable for off road motor sports" was abuse reportable.
The Vehicle Vagrants will scream that there are "thousands off them using the busy roads".
One Saturday, during peak login hours, I decided to test that, I spent 5 hours circumnavigating the continent of Satori, looking for all these Vehicle Vagrants, following the roads.
I found exactly TWO, both afk/bots, who had been sat in an aircraft, parked on the taxiway of aa double decker fugly prim-crap airport, floating 40 m above the ground, since the regions last rolling restart the previous Tuesday.
One Vehicle Vagrant organisation published a map showing recomended air travel routes, one of their major routes passed through my LIVING ROOM.
Finally, after suffering a couple of years of over-entitled home invades IM'ing me with personal abuse for owning a mainland parcel that wasn't a public entertainment venue, I decided enough was enough, and put up the ban lines and installed a zero-second orb, set to dropkick anyone who intruded more than 2 m into my parcel.
The orb banned vehicle vagrants at a rate of approx ONE every THREE weeks. Where is this "vast army of hard done by vehicle vagrants"?
The orb only had to ban about 30 of them before the rest got the message, I concluded from this, and from the recurring list of names in discussions like this, that the number of hard core home invaders is almost certainly under 100, and probably under 50.
If these people feel an overwhelming need to control who is allowed on land I pay for, they should BUY IT FROM ME.
Otherwise they can just go trespass someplace else.
Kinda Vile
Zalificent Corvinus You pay for the land from Linden Labs, who ultimately owns the servers. You're a tennant by all intensive purposes.
I think people just want to be able to pass over your building, not cause any harm.
DevinKnights84 Resident
Zalificent Corvinus "having a skybox, several km above ground level was abuse reportable" if it's not above 2,000 meters then yes it is reportable. and orbs are reportable if they don't follow the specific rules set by the Lindens.
Zalificent Corvinus
DevinKnights84 Resident
Ah, yet another over-entitled and ignorant Bellicosian.
You are wrong when discussing MAINLAND, the Bellicosian Anti-Privacy Zone's Covenant of Awfulness ONLY applies in Bellicosia.
Filing FRAUDULENT AR's against Mainlanders isn't a good advert for your cause.
There are NO rules on Mainland about orbs and their settings, if there were, Privacy-Hating Vehicle Vagrants wouldn't have spent the last decade and a half constantly moaning about orbs.
There are NO rules on Mainland about skybox heights. See above for the PHVV Moaning proof of this.
If there was a Bellicosian Covenant of Awfulness on Mainland, this thread would not exist.
DevinKnights84 Resident
You are really showing your lack of intelligence. you think I know where you live? You really are paranoid. That or you're just one of those people that needs attention so bad you fight against everything good just to get the attention. You should calm down. leave your locked skybox and go sailing with someone. Also, Bellisseria is part of the mainland.
Zalificent Corvinus
DevinKnights84 Resident
Yet again, a Bellicosian Vehicle Vagrant proves their lack of understanding.
THE BELLICOSIAN COVENANT OF AWFULNESS DOES NOT APPLY TO THE MAINLAND CONTINENTS.
Go and check, you'll find no covenant on Mainland, and Bellicosia is not considered mainland, it's a separate estate.
Abuse Reports against Mainlanders for not following the Bellicosian Covenant, ON MAINLAND are automatically FRAUDULENT, and constitute ToS violating harassment.
That makes you a Griefer eligible for a perma-ban from SL if you do it too often and get reported for it.
And opposing a plan to give special snowflake status to griefer trash is not "fighting something good".
PS, I probably own more sailboats than you do...
That's why I never believe all the Vehicle Vagrant claims about "you cant go more than 2 sims without getting sent home by an orb".
Starbuckk Serapis
Zalificent Corvinus Here is a "Get real" moment for you. LL Community guidelines, as posted in official LL Knowledge Base by Jeremy Linden, does call for reasonable warning. No one with a reasonable mind will agree that no warning is reasonable, But your reference to terms like "Vehicle Vagrant" and "Home Invasion Supremacist" makes your position clear on that. You have placed your posts in the category of hate speech by using this terminology. The Linden Labs position on this is very clear, as evidenced by the following:
- The below post which comes from an OFFICIAL LL page.
- The fact that non-specific restrictions are limited to 50 meters above ground level.
- The change proposal has been accepted.
So try becoming a civil resident and play nice with the community. Your hate speech benefits no one. NO ONE flying over your precious parcel for five seconds is there to do you harm. And clearly based on #1 and #2 above, per LL, your rights are not absolute to the top of the grid any more than that of a RL homeowner has the right to ban planes from flying over.
Script Use
You can use scripted objects to enhance your land ownership tools. Generally, such scripts should:
Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.
Only work within the property lines (this includes projectiles that cannot operate beyond the parcel boundaries).
Not be excessive in the removal of the unwanted Resident. Pushing an avatar off the property or teleporting them home is generally acceptable; intentionally applying a script to disrupt someone's Second Life connection or online status is not allowed.
Scripts or no scripts, you cannot use land ownership as a way to unfairly restrict another Second Life Resident's personal freedoms.
DevinKnights84 Resident
Zalificent Corvinus good for you, go get a cookie. 'own more boats' doesn't mean 'does more sailing / travel'. I never said Bellisseria covenant covered old mainland. and yes Bellisseria is part of mainland now that it is connected to most of the old mainland continents and holds them all together. it's also as big as old mainland so I think it is mainland now, yes it is LL premium homes not standard mainland, but it is still mainland, not private regions. You put words in my mouth several times in this hissy fit of yours. have some oxygen man. stop throwing a fit and take the time to read. The plan isn't to get rid of security, if you had read what is being asked and said, all they want to do is add a safe delay, not open the grid to griefers. You seem to really like repeating nonsense. "vehicle vagrant"? you said yourself you own and use vehicles, so I guess you are among the vehicle vagrants. "bellicosian"?.... you came in here attacking the large group of people that want this delay.
( bellicose
adjective
: favoring or inclined to start quarrels or wars )
Zalificent Corvinus
DevinKnights84 Resident
Well done you found a dictionary.
"( bellicose
adjective
: favoring or inclined to start quarrels or wars )"
This is exactly why Bellicosians are what they are, After a maritime route was opened from Bellicosiaa to the Mainland continent on which I live, I suddenly hd n influx of Bellicoian Trepaasers.
My custom orb, reported the co-ords from which they were punted, every single one was punted from altitudes between 2300m and 2700 m.
Thee are NOT "explorers", you can't see a damn thing worth exploring from thata height. They intruded several hundred m above the "Bellicosian Free Fly Ceiling" of 2000m, very firmly in "Legal Skybox" territory, this is deliberate, they were doing so n the hopes of finding "legal" skyboxes and platform that they could file fraudulent Abuse Report about, just as you in your own words claimed that having a skybox "several km above ground" on the Mainland was against rules that ONLY apply in Bellicosia, presumably because either you don't understand that "several km" is more than 2000 m, or because you are just a liar.
The pattern is clear, Bellicosian fake explorers are bellicose because they go to mainland deliberately looking to cause trouble and file fraudulent Abuse Reports.
The clue is in the name.
"( bellicose
adjective
: favoring or inclined to start quarrels or wars )"
DevinKnights84 Resident
Zalificent Corvinus you're just supporting our cause continuing like this. seems you wanna continue your one man war against a community that already won because you're starved for attention. good luck with that.
Rizzy Khaos
Zalificent Corvinus Maybe if you didn't waste so much money on sailboats you'd be able to own a homestead.
You might want to check your mainland covenant tab because there is now a covenant, in preparation for the release of HDR terrain because I suspect LL knows that many of its users wont be able to see HDR terrain textures and will be seeing white blank textures due to their ancient computers.
Something that could be mitigated if they didnt waste so much money on buying so many virtual sailboats, that they rarely use.
BJoyful Resident
Could such a delay be universally coded into the server to detect if an agent enters an owned parcel that any non agent request by an object like an orb or security device to Teleport/Eject activate an llSleep for those seconds deemed fair before handling the Eject request?
B
Big Blep
Philip Linden I think your proposal is not a solution to the problem you are trying to fix. It will make some people happy, while upsetting others. Therefore it might be wise to instead reconsider the proposal itself.
There are many in this thread that have signaled they want a different solution instead, so I'd like to use the opportunity to pitch my take:
The ability to place a static volume (box, cylinder, sphere) tied to a list that separates the residents living there (listed) from the residents passing through (unlisted), as though two dimensions occupy the same space; similar to how private parcels do it except access will not be denied. It might be worth exploring if this is possible without having to modify the clients (viewers).
- Listed residents will not be disturbed because they cannot see/hear unlisted (and vise-versa) (including media).
- Unlisted residents can navigate through the property without hassle.
- (If possible) hide objects (like cars, planes, boats) of residents that are unlisted from the listed ones.
- (If possible) disallow unlisted residents from interacting (touch, sit) with any prims within the volume.
Like this, everyone can be happy. Those that want privacy get their privacy. Those that want to explore get to explore. Such a system could replace and obsolete existing systems for privacy (parcel rules, ban lines,
llEjectAgent()
, etc.), modernizing and simplifying the whole concept going forward
.Broken Voxel
Big Blep this is the solution. Have a check box in land tab and all parties are happy. Else we wait 15 more years for the same discussion. Ha
Wynter Serenade
Big Blep I really like this solution you pitched. To expand on it though, in the spirit of what your 'volume' or "prim" bordering suggests, perhaps we can utilize something similar to the EEP system that allows for different environments at different levels. Instead it would allow for different privacy permissions at different altitudes.
Starting from 4096m, as that is the highest one can rez anything, every 'entry' that is added encompasses the space from the next highest entry down to the present entry, at which the new policy/privacy preference takes precedence (the reverse of the environment system). It could incentivize folks to use their land and space in new ways. Say someone wants to have a portion of their sim be public, but wants a private space for just their friends. They set everything below 3000m public and then everything from 4096m - 3001m is private, subject to the limitations you suggested. I think that would be a win, and based upon your other logic, it would make the space from 4096-3001m still passable, but they couldn't interact with the individuals or objects inside of that space and vice versa.
I did a small mock up of what that could look like. I also like this idea for the other fact that you could essentially do a 'block and derender' of someone through the land without listing them. They still get to pass through, but unless you've got radar or your mini-map up, you'd be none the wiser.
Philip Linden Out of all the noise this highly debated question has raised, I think this may be one of the better solutions if it is feasible.
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